Post by Majin Tomato on Nov 17, 2018 18:03:03 GMT -6
I lean more on the side of Super, but it's really a case of a show that was flawed from the get go and never got better vs one that had so much potential and wasted it on mediocre plots and stories. Neither, objectively, is GOOD, but Super is overall more entertaining (Though I'll admit it did dip once or twice into just plain awful territory) and does a better job with giving the characters development than GT did.
And really, that's one of the areas that I think GT REALLY dropped the ball on. Yes, the initial decision to de-age Goku and create a somewhat dragonball-esque search through space was dumb, but they did backpedal on most of that relatively early on. However, GT WASTES pretty much every character it utilizes, even and ESPECIALLY the so called "main characters". Trunks might as well be a clothing store mannequin(possessing neither the pathos of Future Trunks or Kid Trunks' cockiness), Pan is annoying and is relegated to damsel in distress 90% of the series, and Vegeta becomes little more than a powerup for Goku later in the series. And despite sponging most of the series focus, Goku is basically the same from the series beginning as he was to it's end.
That last point is kinda true of Super as well, but at least Super A. didn't have Goku win a single arc(at least after the movies), and B. delved into aspects of his character that hadn't really been explored as much before. Couple that with a much bigger focus on the double act of him and Vegeta, plus cool character moments with Roshi, Future Trunks, Android 17, 18, Krillin, and others... hell, for as much as there is to gripe about Gohan's wishy washy portrayal in the series, at least he's a goddamn character in Super. Gohan and Goten in GT might as well be interchangeable, given how little we see either in the series.
Super is FLAWED, but I'll take flawed that gives me awesome character bits like the ones between Future Trunks and 18, or well animated fights like the final fight against Jiren, over a series that really didn't do much of either.
Post by dippergames420 on Nov 17, 2018 21:45:52 GMT -6
GT. Super had noticeable animation errors that weren't just in-betweens like some say, but most of these appeared to be keyframes drawn poorly. GT on the other hand, whilst it didn't have perfect animation, but it still had more on-model character animation. Super also had its fair share of plot holes. Some plot holes being:
-Why do the Potara defuse after an hour? It's stated openly in the manga that you cannot defuse once fused, with only few exceptions being made. So, it's only said in the anime, not the manga. Hell, it's even said in the anime of Z (not sure about Kai) that you cannot defuse once fused. The fusion dance on the other hand, is meant to only last half an hour. Key examples being Vegito VS Zamasu and Kefla VS Goku.
-Why is Goku sent off to Earth as a toddler? It was said clear as day in the original anime and manga that Goku (or at the time, Kakarot) was sent to Earth as a baby, and just proves a plot hole in both the new Broly movie and DB Minus.
-Why do Caulifla and Kale get Super Saiyan as quickly as they do? The whole tingly back feeling thing doesn't make sense, seeing as how Goku had to see Piccolo get shot and Krillin die at the hand of Freeza before him in order to achieve Super Saiyan, then went through at least 11 years of training to achieve Super Saiyan 2. Better example, Trunks had to witness his best friend and mentor as well as thousands upon thousands of people getting slaughtered on a daily basis in order to achieve Super Saiyan. You could even argue that Vegeta threatening Cabba could have caused him to go Super Saiyan. But, nope! Kale gets to be knockoff Broly and go Legendary Super Saiyan (yes, I still call it that, Super Saiyan Berzerk sounds stupid) with minimal effort, worse yet, Caulifla goes Super Saiyan, again with minimal effort, then Super Saiyan 2 (a transformation that required Gohan to watch as his friends were being beaten to near death by Cell Juniors) within the span of two episodes.
Also, is it just me or is Goku stupid in Super? As in, really stupid? In Dragon Ball Z, he actually had a reason to train. He both wanted to get stronger and needed it to fend off the Earth or even Universe 7 as a whole from evil. He needed to train in order to defeat Vegeta and Nappa, not because he wanted to, but because he HAD to. In the Cell Saga, leading up to the Cell Games, he needed to train in order to fight Cell. Not because he wanted to fight someone stronger. Though, I will openly admit that he said something akin to being upset about dying because he wanted to fight the androids in the manga. But, what I will say is at least he didn't openly risk his universe to get stronger.
I get GT had plot holes and its mistakes, and in all honesty, I like it no more than anyone else here does. However, to me it's more of a pick the lesser of two evils situation. And to me, the lesser of two evils is GT.
Post by Majin Tomato on Nov 17, 2018 22:45:36 GMT -6
-the fact that potara is permanent was something said by Old Kai. He had never seen a potara fusion that didn't involve a Kai, but Gowasu WAS aware of the limitation. It's a retcon for sure, but it actually FIXES the plot hole of the Vegito fusion wearing off in Z.
-Thats toriyama and was not in Super proper, holding minus against Super is silly. Also until Broly comes out we won't know how it's presented.
-Because it's not like we ever had unexplained Super Saiyans in Z. I may not be a fan of Toriyamas retcon that tailless Saiyans go ssj easier, but the universe 6 Saiyans clearly evolved differently and whatever, and they're still 5 steps behind.
-they overdid it in Super, but that has always been a part of Goku's character. He let's Piccolo Jr, Vegeta AND Freeza go just to get fights again later (it's NOT mercy like the dub might have you believe) and y'know, Cell senzu. There's definitely some bad writing there too, but Goku has never been Superman, he's ALWAYS been kind of a selfish ass.
Now, do NOT misunderstand me, Super is flawed as heck, with poor animation due to how rushed production was, and had the worst end to an arc EVER. And GT had some great concepts and a better series end than either DB or Z did. Plus SSJ4 is just a cool design. So I get why people would like it more. But I can name FAR worse plot holes not only in GT AND Super but in Dragonball and DBZ, so bashing Super for that seems silly to me.
Post by Adrenaline on Nov 17, 2018 23:16:09 GMT -6
GT had its ups and downs. Ups: Super Saiyan 4, fantastic artwork, great story ideas with Baby, bringing 17 back, and the Shadow Dragons, but it sealed its fate by 1) making Pan an integral part of the story, 2) executing the Baby saga terribly, and 3) neglecting the rest of the Z warriors (Piccolo, Tien, Krillin, Yamcha).
Meanwhile, the only positives with Super have been ultra instinct and keeping the other Z warriors useful. However, they've completely destroyed power scaling, ruined any drama by consistently making Whis and Beerus not care, continuously ride Freeza's junk, and the artwork is very inconsistent.
My vote is for GT, but Super still has time to improve.
Collection Goal Update: 501 Characters Down, 499 To Go
I'd say Super overall. I do like the artwork in GT better though, despite it being like 20 years older. I just don't like how skinny some of the characters look now. Also, Super Saiyan 4 was a really cool design, much better than the two God forms. Ultra Instinct is pretty cool too though. As for the arcs, I'll give my opinion on each.
Black Star- Probably the single worst arc of any DB show. Not hard to see why it was initially skipped in the US and later aired as "The Lost Episodes".
Baby- Cool idea with the whole Tuffle revenge plot and introduced Super Saiyan 4, but it had a lot of stupid moments as well.
Super 17- It was great to see all the villains return, but it was way too short.
Shadow Dragons- I still think Omega Shenron is probably one of the best designed villains in all of DB, and a very fitting final villain. Some of the other dragons were pretty stupid looking though, if you can even call some of them dragons. Great ending to the series.
Battle of Gods and Frieza- Pretty pointless and worse than their movie counterparts.
Universe 6 tournament- Hit alone saved this from being pretty mediocre.
Future Trunks- My favorite arc in Super. I thought the story was very cool and it drew a lot from the Cell saga, which was my favorite from Z. I thought Zamasu was a great villain, and I know people didn't like the ending, but I liked the fact that he was the only villain in all of DB that they couldn't actually beat. They had to call in outside help to stop him.
Tournament of Power- This was hit or miss. A lot of stupid moments and characters but also a lot of cool moments and music. Was cool to see everyone have to work together to take down Jiren, who was an absolute beast. I wish Buu would have been in the tournament too though. I don't know why he kept getting shafted all throughout Super.
The first dozen (or more) episodes of both are pretty horrible to watch. I haven't seen all of Super, but I have seen some of it, and many of the episodes are actually entertaining! There really wasn't a lot that was entertaining about GT overall. Just some great character designs.